Marriage
Albert Mohler wrote a nice article on marriage. Here are some excerpts:
Our culture is so sexually confused that the goods of sex are severed from the vows and obligations of marriage. Thanks to modern technologies, we can have sex without babies, babies without sex, and both without marriage. For many, marriage has become an irrelevancy.
How does marriage glorify God? Tertullian, one of the early church fathers, offers wisdom: “How beautiful, then, the marriage of two Christians, two who are one in home, one in desire, one in the way of life they follow, one in the religion they practice . . . Nothing divides them either in flesh or in spirit . . . They pray together, they worship together, they fast together; instructing one another, encouraging one another, strengthening one another. Side by side they visit God’s church and partake God’s banquet, side by side they face difficulties and persecution, share their consolations. They have no secrets from one another; they never shun each other’s company; they never bring sorrow to each other’s hearts . . . Seeing this Christ rejoices. To such as these He gives His peace. Where there are two together, there also He is present.”
Having been married for over four and a half years now I can say that it’s true. It’s truly an awesome thing. Every day is better than the day before. We have fallen more in love with each other every day. I can’t wait to walk with my wife for many more decades -God willing- and see how God can use it for His glory and what all He has in store for us.
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Hey Chris. It’s nice to hear that you enjoy your marriage as you said, I honestly mean it. Still, I don’t know why one should make assumptions about other marriages because of their religion.
The divorce rates for example don’t really support the idea of christian marriages being any better off ( http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm ). Neither does common sense – two christians can love each other just as much as any two people, be it scientologists, atheists or followers of the maya mythology. Besides, Mary and Joseph weren’t christian either, it seems that they did just fine.
By the way, to the first paragraph: the only of the four points that Maher critisizes which has anything to do with modern technology is “babies without sex”, and that is clearly a great thing for people who are for any reason otherwise imcapable of reproduction. By the way, I wouldn’t have thought that “babies without sex” is something a _christ_ian would disapprove of.
Marriage was instituted by God way before Mary and Joseph. They weren’t Christians, you’re probably right, at least when they got married, but they didn’t have to be. God made marriage in the very beginning when He created man. Can non-Christians get married? Yes, definitely. Do understand that marriage is not about feeling in love. It’s a committment, a contract, in which God makes both parties one. Love should be a part of that, and by that I mean agape, unconditional love. Read Ephesians 6ish for the roles of man and woman in marriage.
God hates divorce, and it should never be counseled. However, there are instances in which it is permissable, namely gross sexual immorality and abandonment. Of course the statistics you cited reflect our culture: False converts, fallen human beings. Just because you claim to be a Christian doesn’t mean you are one. If the majority of the USA were really Christian, as the statistics say, I wonder why it’s such an immoral nation.
Christians should have a problem with a lot of the reproductive technologies these days. The alternative to not having children because you are not able to, and in my opinion preferred way, is adoption. Many of the other ways either introduce a third party into the marriage unity, or produce embryos that are “unneeded” and killed.
Your last comment was so off the wall that I won’t say much about it. If you think the birth of Christ was in any way comparable to some IVF or other, you need to study a bit more. That said, children are a blessing and I am sure there are many who don’t have a home that you are able to adopt and give a home.
Well I whole-heartedly agree that Mary and Joseph didn’t need to be christians, that was my point; I just wanted to give an example to why Tertullian’s small rant is so redundant. Christianity is not a necessary requirement for a beautiful marriage. Oh and thanks for the advice, but Ephesians 6 is about how slaves should be obedient to their masters; the part you must have meant was Ephesians 5, where women have to submit to their husbands. (Exception from your comment from yesterday “The standard that God sets never encouraged the supression of women or slavery.”?) Maybe you’ll want to answer this with the “out-of-context”-argument. Well, “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord” means: do what he says. The rest of the paragraph also goes into how the man should love his wife. But love or not, this is surpression.
Your second paragraph was something I expected earlier, the “no true scotsman” argument. But apart from that – a thought experiment: let’s say there is a couple, with no children, who married 15 years ago, when they were completely in love and yadda yadda. Now since 7 years there’s not much love left and it’s getting worse. Marriage counseling and every other attempt to revive the marriage was useless. Should those people stick together even if it only hurts both of them, because “Christ rejoices”?
To your third paragraph… well adopting a child also takes a third party in your marriage unity, technically even four because that child had two parents, whereas IVF requires no or at most one “outsider” donor. And that “many ways” (how many? I didn’t find them) are not morally acceptable doesn’t say anything about the ones that are. So, if you prefer adoption, that’s great for you, and I for example think as well adoption is something beautiful, but there’s no need for anyone else to share that preference. People shouldn’t be forced to that one solution just because one of the two partners has some kind of inability (from birth, an accident, however), and thanks to scientific advance, they don’t have to.
Well and the last comment was a joke, I just found it funny. Really. A president of a baptist seminary cussing about babies without sex. Come on, it is funny.
Greeting, Thomas
Below are my answers, by paragraph.
A “beautiful” marriage is very subjective. Non-Christians can have good times in marriage. But the role of the husband and wife as defined by God cannot be fulfilled by non-Christians. No non-Christian husband can love his wife like Christ loves the church, because he is fallen and unregenerate, and because he doesn’t even know how much Christ loves the church. I’d also say that usually wives don’t submit to their husbands like they should. Any deviation from God’s standard is harmful. He’s not the big show stopper guy in heaven who wants to make sure we have the least fun as possible. Your comment about wives submitting to their husbands again show how little you know about the bible. It does not mean “do what he says.” You may have missed the first part about the husband loving his wife like Christ loves the church. That’s not a suppressive love. You also missed the part where it says “as to the Lord,” which means you should submit to your husband as you should submit to God. If your husband asks you to go against Scripture or against God, you’re not obligated to obey. It institutes a union in which there is one head, the husband, with his wife, his helper. Seriously, as any married man can tell you, if you don’t listen to your wife you’re an idiot. I listen to my wife, but I have the last word. That’s not suppression. Please please do more research about biblical doctrines before throwing around verses you don’t understand. (Almost) any systematic theology can help you out there.
You throw your fallacies around very liberally, and this wasn’t one. A Christian, as defined in the bible and not by culture, will not get a divorce and will seek to be reconciled to his wife, no matter what happens, though divorce is permissible in the two instances I cited earlier. It has nothing to do with “true” Christians, just with the definition of the word. Most people who claim to be Christians are simply not. About your thought experiment. First, though there are difficulties in every marriage, love should always grow if both parties seek Christ together and individually. That’s problem #1 in your experiment. Then you say there is not much love left, which can indeed happen even in Christian marriages, but only after problem #1 already happened. They go through marriage counseling with their pastor. It doesn’t work. Problem #2. It will work, by God’s grace, unless one or both parties are unwilling to make sacrifices or reconcile. So after they already deviated from God’s plan on how it should work, should they stay together? Yes, divorce because of “lack of love” is not a valid reason. Will they stay together? Unlikely. They were willing to go this far outside of God’s plan and provision, they will probably get a divorce. Now, is that a problem with Christianity? Not at all. It’s a problem with people not doing what they should. Marriage is hard, it takes effort, but Christianity is more than a cultural phenomenon, you really need to get that in your head. God provides for His children, and if you want to save a messed up marriage and are willing to let God help and change you, He will.
No, it doesn’t. Your relationship to the adopted baby is the same for both parents. In case of surrogate motherhood or IVF or AI, only one party is the biological parent, the other isn’t. So there is indeed a difference. You bring up an interesting point. There is AIH and AID, artificial insemination by husband and by donor. The first I don’t have a problem with, the second I do for the above mentioned reason. The ones not acceptable are AID, surrogate motherhood -for introducing a third party into the marriage union- and IVF for producing more embryos than are needed and who are then discarded, killing a human being. I am sure there are others. So there are still plenty of ways to get a baby, without violating God’s design.
No, it’s really not, sorry. And cussing means cursing, and he didn’t do that.